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The Homestuck Epilogues
Offline 04-17-2019, 11:36 AM (This reply was last modified: 04-17-2019 11:36 AM by orbitingJupiter.)(Edited by orbitingJupiter.)
Reply: #1
The Homestuck Epilogues
So first off, if you haven't read the epilogues you can do so ==> Here

But you know I think that so far it's pretty interesting. However what's really upsetting is seeing everyone on twitter get so upset over the "jadedavekat" implication.
For me, it's whatever. It's a ship. It's fiction. And we don't know for sure if that's REALLY what Andrew Hussie was even implying.
Another thing you can look at is how rose is talking about canon VS non-canon. She talks about how everything that happened after homestuck and after them going through the door wasn't canon, which, if is the case, would explain why a non-canon ship (even though Hussie had made that one tweet years ago declaring all ships canon because he was sick of people asking) would even be discussed.

orbitingJupiter, signing out!
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Offline 04-23-2019, 01:41 PM
Reply: #2
RE: The Homestuck Epilogues
The most important thing here is, ironically, the meat/candy decision. If you look, there are now 2 branching paths, one for each choice. From what I've read so far, choosing meat makes John decide to retcon warp back to kill Lord English, while choosing candy makes him stay on Earth C. I'm pretty sure Hussie said something about how stories can be divided into their "meat" and their "candy", which I'm guessing this decision represents. These are my current theories on these routes:
Meat: John possibly retcons into a doomed timeline, un-dooming it, and eventually kills Lord English. He'll probably find some way to reenact the masterpiece along the way.
Candy: John stays on Earth C and tries to forget Lord English's existence. Calliope tells John to use his retcon powers one last time to get Gamzee out of the fridge and put him on Earth C, hoping he will redeem himself. My theory is that John might also use retconning to bring back other characters(possibly including Vriska).

Classpecters Interested in Stuff That isn't Homestuck
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Offline 04-23-2019, 07:27 PM (This reply was last modified: 04-23-2019 07:35 PM by Fubar.)(Edited by Fubar.)
Reply: #3
RE: The Homestuck Epilogues
The whole point of Meat/Candy is not about John.

It's about Dirk. That defo problematic apparent Ultimate Dirk.

We have seen Dirk trying to be a better guy. Meat!Dirk doesn't even try. also Meat!Dirk gives no fuck about horses. Raindow Dash included. So sometging about combining all timeline versions of him seems fishy.

Dirk also prides himself on being intelligent and self-aware .
Which means he is neither
His rambles with Rose is just him spewing bunch of pretentious quotes to feel better about himself.
He boasts about self-awareness without realising that self-awareness and self-absorbtion are definitely not the same
he rants on how he is doing it for some greater purpose but his explanations boil down to "well, i want to". he also apparently made a special body for Rose so she could be able to handle becoming her Ultimate Self
but why would one need help from ANOTHER person to be their ultimate SELF? shouldn't that be self-contained? And why is Dirk not having a special Ultimate Self body?

On that note, in Candy timeline Dave meets a holographical projection of Obama. Who also ramts about Ultimate Self. Now, could it be that Obama and Dirk stumbled across the same thing?
Or is it Dirk tinkering/downright making a program (he is scarily good at coding and making robots) tjat would appeal as an authority figure to Dave to put him into a robot body. But why?

Another question.
Meat!Dirk, while tinkering with Rose, keeps Kanaya away. But instead of just using super sleep tranquilizer to just take her out of a picture for long time like he did with Jade he just torments Kanaya for what reason? And he also STILL hasn't gotten over the fact that Jake dumped him (nevermind the fact that it was his and AR's fault for toying eith Jake's feelings)
So why would he intentionally antagonize Kanaya and enjoy that?

Because he feels bitter over the fact that his love life sucks and someone else's doesn't. Especially if that someone else is his relative. Rose, in this case. That also explains why he keeps feeding her all that bullshit about going to another place and leaving her love behind. And the whole body he apparently made for her (and Dave)
But not for himself.
Wouldn't that allow him to control Rose and Dave?

Also there is the fact that he grown up with little to no human interaction. he is self-absorbed but still desperately lonely. Calliope calls him out on that.

And when Dirk takes control of the narrative he is arrogant, boastful and acts like a bully. Even says how god is dead and how he replaced him. Basically the whole "Ultimate Self" bullshit is something he made up to decieve others ("for the sake of Ultimate Self" sounds less sketchy then "because I said so")

And what if Dirk can indeed control Rose and Dave's Ultimate Self artificial bodies? That means he would have a Seer of Light (who can see the timeline Dirk needs) and a Knight of Time (who can move the narrative towards that timeline) all under his control.
But surely Rose, a Seer of Light would've forseen such situation?
She would. If she knew where to look (and she trusts Dirk way too.much to suspect him). And what if the drugs she is being prescribed are made by Dirk himself? He did show himself to be able to create tranquilizer concoctions of varying length. So what if it is Dirk who is feeding Rose the medications? And not to make her feel better. To make her feel worse. To make her believe that she is dying because of her powers. To keep her drugged into a deep slumber so she wouldn't be aware of what he wants to do to her?

so here's the bottom line. The Ultimate Self is bullshit
It's all just a way for Dirk to become the only one who matters in the world because he is just that bitter, lonely and jealous. All "me, me, my, mine, I!"

My fan adventures:

Troll Jailbreak

Trolls but no SGRUB

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Offline 04-25-2019, 03:55 PM
Reply: #4
RE: The Homestuck Epilogues
Something important to remember is that meat and candy are not two different stories, but just two parts to the same story. It is revealed that the blackhole in meat that kills Lord English and sucks a few important characters there does not kill him, but brings him into the self contained candy bubble. There was a lot of people saying that Dirk killed himself in candy because he knew what he would've been otherwise, but if Dirk was already his ultimate self (because he's a prince of heart and can handle it without a robot body) then it would be as Calliope suggested and he killed himself there for a reason. It is probably tied in to a matching event in meat, as there are several things such as the billions of ghost trolls, Meenah with the life ring, and Vriska.

Since there is no Dirk really in candy, I'll refer to meat!Dirk as just Dirk. It's hard to say what has happened since the epilogue. Sure, the last time we saw him was after struggling with being a good person, but here we have 7+ years of him coping with his ultimate self omniscience and narrative knowledge. We don't know how long he's had it, we also don't know what all happened between him, Jake, and the other kids. Dirk doesn't say much about what happened to himself, and while we could just label his motives as "I want to" he clearly has a goal in mind and one that Calliope is actively fighting against (Muse of Space Calliope). We can't in any fairness make an accurate judgement of Dirk's character, because while everyone else is shown slowly adjusting over time like in candy, or are relatively the same in meat barring some exceptions, Dirk is very much the wildcard here. Dirk being a villain isn't much of a stretch either. We all know about Bro, we know his relationship with Jake was unhealthy, we can see from AR how he acts with unlimited knowledge in bullying Jake and fucking with everyone. If someone like Dirk is given that power, and then told his canon significance is up in the air, its hard to say "I know what he would do better than Hussie and team" and mean it.

His rambling has always been a facet of his personality, and its even called out as a joke both by him, Dave, and Karkat. His self awareness comes down to him understanding his own flaws, and his self absorption is overly gratifying what's good about him. He's definitely both, he admits he isn't perfect and is aware of his shortcomings, but is absolutely full of himself for what he acknowledges as strengths. Becoming your ultimate self is still a pretty mysterious topic, and it probably is in concept to be done on your own -- but Dirk has been shown meddling in other things that definitely should be done on their own too, ie DaveKat. The robot body is because of "omniscience sickness" that was slowly killing Rose, and probably would've done the same to Dave if his powers worked the same as Rose's. When she asked him about why he didn't need a robot body, his answer was because he was a heart player and used to juggling numerous versions of his own mind at once. I can't vouch for how well people take this answer, but it is given in a conversation in the epilogues.

The Obama deal is a mystery. Obama himself said that he met Dirk in his own time, and it is rather convenient that there was a robot body there for Dave to open his ultimate self. But was this really Dirk's doing? Hard to say, because as we saw in the PS of Meat, Davebot shows up to help Calliope, not Dirk. There were quite a few things left in mystery in the epilogues, likely because they are not over and are rapidly becoming their own story with different themes and symbolism than homestuck, if they haven't already. Quotes from the authors would support this, and I can link them as needbe.

As for the next question, there is any number of things he could've done to keep Kanaya out of the picture. He was just fucking with her, as he put it. He said so outright that he could have done anything he wanted to get her out of his hair, but was just playing around and having fun with it. He doesn't seem to care much about people anymore, probably because he considers the epilogue non-canon at this point. If I had to guess on his motives, he's leaving with Rose to find a new planet and perhaps trying to find a way to fix/change the Earth C timeline to make it canon, or make his own universe to play God. Dirk's motives aren't entirely known to us, but several things he does say. He does eventually convince Kanaya to leave, but he's not entirely cruel. Yes, he broke her heart and stole her wife, but he set her up to move on and be happy. It wasn't until people accosted her over it she realized that moving on so fast was ridiculous, and Dirk lost control as he was leaving.

Can he control the ultimate bots? Who knows? We haven't seen any ultimate selves except for Dirk and possibly Calliope, barring the bots of course, so there's no way to know how they interact with him and his narrative powers. Does reaching your ultimate self automatically give you narrative powers? Too many questions with no answers yet.

The ultimate self thing being a diversion to fuel Dirk's god complex is a theory, I have to iterate. No matter how passionately we feel about the epilogues, it doesn't make certain statements true. I was shocked by them on first read and now really enjoy them. There is just too much we don't know at this time to say for certain what Dirk's motives are, what he's doing, what the ultimate self means for others, how exactly candy/meat will fully intertwine, etc etc.

Time will tell.

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Offline 04-25-2019, 08:39 PM
Reply: #5
RE: The Homestuck Epilogues
My idea is indeed simply a theory. Just a theory that clicked for me. We'll see what happens but I am actually pretty happy with the epilogue. A character forcefully bending reality to his whims explains why the whole thing sometimes feels so horrible (out if universe reason is untentional use of several disturbing fan fiction tropes)

Also the "dubious canonicity" really helps. It basically means that Jane COULD grow up into a racist control freak. But she doesn't have to. Same with Dirk, whos iteration here makes for actually much more engaging and much less bland villain compared to Lord English.

As for Obama I do want to point some words out.

OBAMA: Haven’t you been improved by the knowledge of what you grew up to be in my time? Can you really say you’d be what you are today without the memory of him?

OBAMA: Or the memory of me, for that matter?

These don't seem to be the words of a humble person Dave was referring to. They do sound fairly close to what would epilogue!Dirk have said.

But the bottom line is that I actually like the way Epilogue is turning out and am pretty damn hyped for more.

My fan adventures:

Troll Jailbreak

Trolls but no SGRUB

A kid in some strange world
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Offline 04-25-2019, 09:22 PM
Reply: #6
RE: The Homestuck Epilogues
I really, REALLY hope we get more stuff by the end of the year if this is what has been cooked on for the past while. There are aspect I really don't like too much (Jane, my sweet daughter, what happened to you!?), but overall it is propelling the story forward from a natural stand-still ending. The fact that this is fully not considered canon (for now? Maybe?) helps swallow everything a bit more. And even if it is pretty clear at the end, I was pretty blown away by Dirk's reasoning for doing all of what he was doing. The callbacks that the story had to the audience booing him in his televised fight with Jake was so damn good

He doesn't mind being the bad-guy as long as things go to plan. And god I fucking love that

I'm also in the same camp regarding Holo!Obama as secretly Dirk, programmed by Dirk, or something similar. Lots of things really pointed that towards that for me, especially with Obama's ability to pull Dave's essence from his body. If the robo body didn't clue me in, that certainly did

I'm hyped for more as well. I hope we do at least... !!

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Offline 04-26-2019, 06:28 PM (This reply was last modified: 04-26-2019 06:32 PM by tetheredRomantic (TR).)(Edited by tetheredRomantic (TR).)
Reply: #7
RE: The Homestuck Epilogues
Man the epilogues huh? I´ve only gotten the chance to take a look at some parts of the candy route and woooooow.
It was just a shit show, and i loved it, gamzee and eridan got dumb redemption arcs- obama was there for some reason, john and roxy get married just to get divorced and roxy taking my boy harry anderson away.

Davekat happened but then it didnt, which is always a goodie in my book. (the didnt part, they broke up and i couldnt be happier for them not being together anymore, im sorry.)

I seem to be liking the epilogues and their bizarre nature, i also could appreciate seeing more of john, i felt like there just wasnt enough of him in the actual comic, I would have also loved to see more of characters like eridan, equius, feferi, maybe even the dancestors!

But im still rather confused, seems they arent totally canon? either wont be or will be, I hope we get to see more cause i kind of skipped to the end and it just doesnt seem like a conclusion? I dont know if my point makes sence, maybe it is a logical conclusion and my dumbass just didnt notice. But for now it seems we´ll have to wait what happens and I just couldnt be more excited.
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